Kevin Tumlinson

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Stoicism for Authors with Jonas Salzgeber // EP206

Kevin Tumlinson

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Stoicism for Authors with Jonas Salzgeber // EP206 Kevin Tumlinson | Wordslinger Podcast

​Jonas Salzgeber is the author of The Little Book of Stoicism and writes for a small army of remarkable people at NJlifehacks.com. On his quest to be the best he can be he stumbled upon Stoicism – and got hooked. His practical writing style helps people with the most important step: to put the wisdom from book page to action.

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stoicism, book, stoic, idea, authors, philosophy, life, read, writing, find, jonas, practice, people, helpful, principles, interesting, helped, thinking, talking, prepare

SPEAKERS

Wordslinger Announcer, Kevin Tumlinson, Jonas Salzgeber

Kevin Tumlinson  00:00

Hey slayers Welcome back to another week of the words linear podcast and we're talking to Jonas Sal's gaber about stoicism and how it applies to you as an author. So stick around, that's coming up next. Hey, how you doing on money. I know it's a touchy subject, but I got some that may help you out. See, I'm using an app called acorns. And it helps me manage some investing. Put some money back, get a little interest. It's kind of nice to watch my money grow. So I want to share that with you. Go to Kevin tumlinson.com slash acorns. And you'll get some free money. See you there.

Wordslinger Announcer  00:47

It's the word slinger Podcast, where story matters. build your brand, write your book, redefine who you are. It's all about this story here. What's your Now, here's the guy who invented ads optional. Kevin Tumlinson no word slinger. What?

Kevin Tumlinson  01:12

Well, I am Kevin Thompson the word slinger and you are in the right place. I've been popping up all over the place lately. So you may have heard me on some other podcasts either as a guest or as doing a ad spot or whatever. I'm getting emails about that stuff now. Good. Like, like fan mail. That's pretty funny. So here we are. We're about to today's guest is interesting. I reached out to him after reading his book. And I do this pretty frequently. But today we're talking to Jenna sales. gaber. He is the author of a book called let me make sure I get the title right. I make sure I think it's warming. It's right there in front of me and I can't find it. Don't you hate when that happens? That's something that you were looking for. You want to refer to but it is called the little book of stoicism. You think I'd remember that. But I read that book a few months ago now a couple months ago now. And just it just sort of opened up a door. I guy I was suddenly very interested in stoicism as a topic. I had read another couple of books, I'd encountered stoicism as a philosophy a few times. I had people I follow refer to it pretty frequently, I'd read some things about the stoics and some of the major practitioners of Stokes and especially in Greek history. I was familiar with it as a topic, but I didn't embrace it as a sort of life philosophy until I started reading books like the little book stoicism so if you are looking for something to add to your list for your next read, I would throw this in there. contendere Little Book of stoicism by Jonas sounds gaber we're not we're going to be talking about stoicism in general about how he came to experience it, how he applies it to his life. Before we get to that, I just want to this is the part of the show where I can't throw my own stuff in there. Where this has helped me as a philosophy, it sort of cements a lot of what I was already thinking and doing. Okay, so it's a sort of way for me to come back around to I, I'm doing I'm putting, basically I'm being more intentional about things that I practice. I see stoicism as being a kind of common sense sort of thing. Once you start looking into it, you realize, you know, you already know these principles. So it's good to get confirmation. It's good to get some validation might be a better term. It's a very Live and let live kind of philosophy. But don't mistake it for being inactive. I it's a very active philosophy, it's a lifestyle, once you start to adapt it and I it's really helped me quite a bit and dealing with things like anxiety and you know, the stuff that has plagued me for the past few years. It's like that stuff started to come on me a few years ago, and now I've got a tool for helping me deal with it. So that's, that's why it's been important to me, where I see this benefiting authors is you know, we suffer from things like imposter syndrome, or, you know, deadline anxiety or, you know, just questioning whether or not what we're doing is worthwhile. And I think if you are a practicing stoic, it will make things a little easier on you. You'll realize that some things don't matter as much. So and that's, this is also by the way, how I'm starting to deal with social media like I've been withdrawing bit by bit from Social media, from paying attention to social media, I'm still out there, and I'm active. But what I'm doing now is a lot of the things that bother me when people pop up and they say something just completely offensive or immoral or unethical or you know, just the things that really just horrified me about social media. I'm able to just kind of shrug that off now getting better about that, like, just let them let them define whatever reality they want to live in and live at it. I don't have to, I choose not to.

Kevin Tumlinson  05:36

I'm a big fan of Victor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning which we do bring up in this interview. And it's a very similar idea of his logotherapy is very similar to this. In fact, there's apparently a great deal of evidence now that he drew upon the Stokes he was probably a practicing stoic himself. And it is this idea that you can only control the only thing within your control Is your choice of how you perceive the events of your life? And what their meaning is. What What does the What does your life mean? You can decide on that? What does this event mean? And when you're a practice, when you're practicing this as a philosophy, it's free. It's free freeing. You know, you suddenly realize, you know, I don't have to couple this with the sort of Buddhist idea, or maybe maybe it's not strictly a Buddhist idea, but the idea of, you know, there's no, you know, if you can divorce your ego from the scenario, you don't judge something as being good or bad, you are outside of it, then it has less than an effect on you. That's my interpretation, by the way, and your your interpretation may vary. So, anyway, I find this a very helpful useful philosophy and practice something I've I've done a deep dive into now, right? books by Ryan Holiday. I've read some, the Marcus Aurelius journals, really, some of the letters from sinica and things like that I've really been kind of just pushing myself to learn more and practice more in this and I think it's improved my life quite a bit. So I wanted to bring you a taste of this as a philosophy. And perhaps you can make it a part of your own life, make it a part of your own journey, or not. You can do whatever you want. That's the that's the key here. It's all up to you. So without further ado, let's get into this interview where you can get some insight from a real expert on this. And stick around after and I'll say our goodbyes and farewells and I'll see you. Hey, everybody, thanks for tuning in. today. I've got a guest I've actually really been looking forward to chatting with this guest I read his book I have, he helped introduce me to some, some key principles that I like to adhere to in my life. And it's put me on a whole rabbit trail of all kinds of other authors and resources. So I have a great deal of gratitude and a great debt to pay to this gentleman. I'm talking to Jonas, and I'm going to attempt to Jonas, bear with me. Sounds gaber

Jonas Salzgeber  08:25

That's perfect.

Kevin Tumlinson  08:28

That's perfect. Okay. All right. One victory out of the way. Okay, so javas thanks for being on the show. Man. I appreciate you being here. Thanks for having me. I am notoriously terrible with name pronunciation, so I appreciate your patience. So you are now what we're going to be talking about today is something near and dear to me now, which is stoicism and you you wrote a book on the subject that was the first, maybe the second book that I stumbled across on that topic, and let the cuz of you, you became the gateway to stoicism for me. So thank you for that, man. I really appreciate it. It's been very helpful.

Jonas Salzgeber  09:08

Well, thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed the book and you know, it opened maybe many more many ways. Yeah, for you in life. I mean, as it did for me story systems are can really be so helpful and useful in everyday life. And I'm glad if my book, you know, if you learned something out of the book yet,

Kevin Tumlinson  09:32

yeah. So we're talking about the book we're talking about for the listeners is the little book of stoicism, which you can find on Amazon and you can find it on the show notes for this episode. You can be sure. But James, I'm kind of curious like you You did go into this a little in the book, but how did you come to stoicism and the practice of this? Like what? What brought you around on this?

Jonas Salzgeber  09:58

I mean, it was With my brother nields we've always been interested in, you know, getting better, you know, how to improve as a person, you know, to improve ourselves and you know, get closer to that, you know, famous potential. We all have, we will never reach right. I've been a voracious reader for quite some time and we started you know, also blogging about the stuff we find most useful in our lives. And then I think I first stumbled upon stoicism through Ryan holidays book. The obstacle is the way Yeah. And then I thought, wow, this stoicism sounds really interesting because the book is based on an idea from Marcus Aurelius. But I didn't really know what stoicism was all about. So I dove deeper and you know, bought a couple of books and learn more and more on the topic and yeah, I find it really funny. Fascinating and still, to this day, it's really interesting philosophy.

Kevin Tumlinson  11:05

Yeah. And once you, once you kind of start on this path, you, you really dig in, I've noticed, if it clicks with you, you really start reading everything you can read watching everything you do and watch was that kind of your experience as well?

Jonas Salzgeber  11:20

Exactly. Yeah, just really soaked in everything I could, you know, on the topic and from different sources. And yeah, because it's, you know, from the beginning on it was really, you know, interesting and helpful and made a lot of sense. And yeah, it was really, you know, this, I say it's like a walking stick, you know, very reliable, you know, source of direction in life and it's credibly helpful. Yeah. So

Kevin Tumlinson  11:52

for those who don't know what stoicism is and in the in the United States, when we hear stoicism or being stoic. We think I think primarily of the sort of British idea of stoicism would you know the stiff upper lip? Let nothing bother you almost detach yourself from emotion and I don't think that's entirely that's, that's sort of in a vague sense, what it is, but how would How would you sum it up for somebody if you needed to get them on board with the idea on an elevator?

Jonas Salzgeber  12:28

I've always struggled with this, you know, to explain stoicism very simply. That's one of the reasons why I wrote the book because, you know, I read so much on the topic, and I couldn't really explain it so well, even to friends. And so for the book, I created the stoic happiness triangle, and I'll explain it. I think that's a really simple explanation of stoicism. So the goal of life was eudaimonia. And basically, that's just the good life. You want to flourish in life, you you want the good life? How do you get there? You live with the relief with virtue. So live with directed the Greek word. And that's just, you know, expressing your best self in every moment. So every moment you try to be your best self, that's the first thing you do. That's the first corner of the story capitalist triangle, then, how can you do that? The stoics had a very simple strategy from our, from Epic Jesus. He said, make the best use of what's in your power and take the rest as it happens. So that's really focused on what you control and take everything else as it it's going to happen. So that's the second quarter. And then so install system it's really not so important, what happens to you, but how you respond to it, then that's where you must take responsibility. And it That's wonderful. words he response ability, we are able to respond to what happens to us in life. And that's really what stoicism is all about. Basically, something happens to you, and you are questioned or you're asked by life to respond properly. So yeah, basically, you try to be your best self in every moment and accept what happens and try to respond you in the best possible way.

Kevin Tumlinson  14:27

Yeah. What's really interesting to me, because this is, by every definition, stoicism is this is an ancient philosophy, like all the way back to even even before the famous Greeks, from what I've been reading. And yet, it seems like we kind of rediscover it every couple of decades. And, you know, I read Victor Frankel's book, Man's Search for Meaning. His whole like, you know, logotherapy idea and it and So when I was reading your book, I found like I found that those concepts matched like there was a parallel between his logotherapy ideas and the philosophy of stoicism. Have you have you noticed that I noticed this all over the place? By the way? You notice that sort of thing?

Jonas Salzgeber  15:18

Yes, I think a Viktor Frankl he was actually influenced by the stoic, or at least Yeah, that's what modern stoic say. So he was probably influenced and you find lots of similarities. In his book Man's Search for Meaning with you know, the stoic texts. Yeah, I mean, what I said before, you know, taking responsibility that's, I mean, that's where Viktor Frankl found the very meaning of life. Right? You said, right. We are responsible, you know, to respond to all these challenges, we're facing life that's where we found the meaning of life and that's this idea is also found in stoicism. Yeah,

Kevin Tumlinson  16:02

that is something it's really interesting because as I've studied this more, I've come to realize that I, you know, in a lot of ways, I was already practicing a lot of these principles, but I didn't have a bucket to put them in, I didn't have something, you know, a title for what, you know, the philosophy by which I was living. And so it's been very sort of liberating for me to to come across this idea and to study guys like you and Ryan Holliday and a whole bunch of others that I've now discovered thanks to your book. So, you know, I it seems like it seems like stoicism may be at the heart of Western philosophy in general. I mean, do you how how many how, how deep are the roots,

Jonas Salzgeber  16:56

roots of stoicism or?

Kevin Tumlinson  16:59

Yeah, well in What is as it applies to Western culture? Like, you know, are we sort of predicated on stoicism in general?

Jonas Salzgeber  17:08

I think many people, you know, they they come up to me or they they write an email and say for example, they read the Bible. And they find very many similarities between stoicism and what's in the Bible. And there's, you know, people who study Buddhism or practice Buddhism or you know, Buddhist mindfulness and they come to me and say, Hey, so similar, you know, Buddhism, stoicism, what, you know, what you know about the similarities? So, I think it's, it's all over the place because these are very basic ideas and what you said many people say, hey, I've been practicing these principles for years and I and as you said, it's been liberating you know, to fight these written down and you know, to Jeff about a bucket to put them in. Yeah. And I think, No, it's nothing new. Yes. I mean, it's, I think that's a human, or its human principles, you know that that's been? Or Yeah, they've been helpful for thousands of years. And yeah, doesn't really matter where they came from or who teaches them. I think it stayed proven to be helpful. And now even today, in their positive psychology, they have so many exercises that resemble, you know, this the exercises from the early stoics, which I find so interesting, you know, they, they do now exercises in research, and they're proven now to be effective. And already the stoics practiced and, you know, taught these exercises 2000 years ago, so I think it's, it's somehow in human nature, and it's, you know, I don't know, like, right Rational ideas not far fetched. So that's, that's why we find them everywhere.

Kevin Tumlinson  19:06

And I think that's part of why it resonates so much with me and maybe why it resonates with so many other people is that it wanted it feels. feels familiar, but it also feels like confirmation. Like, you know, I'm not crazy, this is a better way to go. But because there is this philosophy that has been explored and written about and videos recorded about and content just blowing up all over the place. Now I can take it further. So it's not just the print the core principles that I've lived by now I can learn how to refining get better at this stuff, too. I don't know if you feel that way or not.

Jonas Salzgeber  19:50

Yes, certainly. I think if you stumbled upon a principle the stoics taught and you you have been living You know, according to this principle, and then you, you find others may be writing about it and you get new ideas, you know, based on the same principle and of course, then you can dive deeper and maybe you find some new exercises and or some new ways to implement it in your own life. And surely, this is, is this can be really useful. And it's something I find, you know, helpful when I read, you know, all the books, listen to podcasts, because people have new ideas based on the same principles that new ways to, you know, implemented in your daily life. And I mean, that's what's important, right, you know, to put the things into practice, just in theory, it's, it's worthless, almost so right. You get other ideas on how you can put it or how you can practice it. I think that's really helpful.

Kevin Tumlinson  20:58

Yeah, that's Yeah, that's very helpful. I mean, that's kind of the point of philosophy. Right is I like what? I think you mentioned this, and I know Ryan Holliday talks about this, but the idea that philosophy is more than just, you know, sitting around on a rock and pontificating and thinking it's also action. So it's a, it's a verb in a way, like we are meant to go off and, and do things in the world. And this is a way to do them with some virtue. So how, what are some ways that people and less, and I want to specifically target authors at this point? Because authors and you may not have thought about this, so don't you can give me generalizations if you want. But um, I feel like this is a philosophy tailor made for the authors that I know the author community that I serve. So what are some ways that you can implement stoic principles in your life that might be beneficial

Jonas Salzgeber  22:01

No, from a practical standpoint, stoicism is a lot about, you know, preparation and reframing. You know, I've written one book. So I have a little experience with with writing and for me, at least, you know, often it was really a challenge, you know, and I've read Stephen pressfield to talks about the inner resistance and they could really, you know, feel this resistance, you know, holding me back so I tried my best and that's where stoicism is coming in, you know, I tried my best to prepare, you know, the night before and I ran, you know, you know, clean the desk and prepare everything and so I would be ready in the morning. So, in the morning, I would do my morning routine, do some movements go out for a very short while, and then, you know, pour myself a cup of coffee and get ready for writing in them. You can write, right. So that was my experience. And that's where, you know, stoic philosophy will, will actually help you, you know, to persist, because that's what what's needed, right? Because if you give up, you will never finish that book. You working on. Right.

Kevin Tumlinson  23:31

So the obstacle literally was the way for you.

Jonas Salzgeber  23:35

Yeah, absolutely.

Jonas Salzgeber  23:39

Yes, absolutely. I was. So the topic I was writing about stoicism really helped me writing the book actually. Yeah, yeah. No, fight through it through this challenge. And I mean, that's that's one thing you know, to look at this as a challenge. And not as a problem, that's what stoicism helps you with, you know, this challenge is is actually necessary, you know, for you to grow, or for your book to actually become a good book that because if it's good, it's going to easy probably, it won't be very good. At least that's what I've heard. And that was my experiences, you know, to you need to be creative. processes is a process. It's, it's nothing that's just coming every day at the time you want it to come. It's, you know, you, you, you need to show up every day and sometimes it's working well and sometimes it's working not so well. You need to show up. And so, yeah, back to the stoic idea. I mean, you focus on what you control. And today we might call this focus on the product. says, you know, this, the stoics had a simple metaphor, the stoic Archer. And so you have an archer. And you you want to hit the dark target with the with the arrow. And now you focus on everything you control. So you preparation training the bow, you choose the arrow, you choose to concentration before you shoot. And then once you let the arrow loose, the outcome is out of your control. Be yet it's going to work or not, you're going to hit or miss. That's beyond your control. And you focus on on the process. And that's what helped me a lot. When writing the book, you know, to focus on what I can do. What can I do right now, and they can do all right, I can sit here and try to write and I put in a lot of effort. If it's going to work fine, and if not so well today that's fine too because it's beyond my control.

Kevin Tumlinson  26:08

Yeah. I, I remember reading. In fact, I think your book is where I first encountered that, that metaphor of the, the archer. And I remember reading and thinking because I am a process guy. I here I am all about building processes making automating processes as much as possible. process makes my life go. And I I liked the idea because I always had trouble reconciling reconciling the idea of I've done everything right. Why didn't I get the right result. And that whole concept of the archer is you are responsible for exactly pulling the bow and releasing the arrow and all the steps it takes to do that. And the result is not up to you. And you have to accept that you may not hit the target that you may not get the goal that you were after that that's not under your control. Focusing on that was very helpful.

27:17

So I'm

Jonas Salzgeber  27:19

glad ahead, I'm sorry. So I also mentioned preparation. I think that's where stoicism can help you to, you know, when it comes to writing, you know, for example, maybe you've written the book and you're about to launch launch the book. And, you know, launching processes may be as challenging as writing process.

Kevin Tumlinson  27:42

Right?

Jonas Salzgeber  27:44

wasn't easy, you know, to to successfully launch the book. So, you know, a lot of things could happen, you know, you know, yeah, maybe you're going to launch a book and nobody's going to buy it right. And so with stoic philosophy You know, I wanted to be prepared because one thing that's important in storage system is you know that you can be your best in every moment. And if you want to do that you need to remain calm. And so it helps you not get caught by surprise. So you can prepare and the stoics use this exercise negative visualization. So you might ask yourself, what could go wrong? Or what could you know, when I launched the book, what could happen next and that that I won't like so much? And then you you imagine, I don't know that maybe the Kindle version somehow. I don't know it will show the images very, very badly or you know, when you want to sell a book or something, or you will get really bad reviews right? So you prepare for those things mentally. So you visualize. First three reviews are going to be one star reviews. Then that's also part of the visualization. You imagine, what are you going to do now in this situation and what's your best response? So you prepare yourself to respond, you know, as good as possible in this no bad scenario you wouldn't wish for. But that's possible to happen. So the idea is not to get caught too much by surprise by misfortune. Yeah.

Kevin Tumlinson  29:31

So I want to talk a little bit about the rest of your business because you you and your brother have built built something up. It's in j life hacks.

29:44

That right century life facts Exactly. And that's

Kevin Tumlinson  29:48

it Niles is how you pronounce his name? Yeah, Neil's Neil's Okay, sorry. All right, Nielsen, Jonas. Okay, so that that's what the nfj stand for. So what is the idea behind nj life hacks and and the website by the way, everyone is nj life hacks. com which you can find in the show notes.

Jonas Salzgeber  30:07

I mean,

Jonas Salzgeber  30:10

it's funny, you know, when we started almost five years ago, or four and a half years ago we, you know, we both were interested, as I mentioned before, you know, in getting more out of ourselves and we want it's broad is it's a personal development. Yeah. So we read countless books. And we we learned a lot along the way and at some point we decided, you know, to try to share some of the best stuff we find. And, and obviously also we tried to you know, it was a hobby in the beginning but we didn't try to you know, earn something. And that's actually how the book came came to be because my brother Neil's He learned about, you know, Kindle, this Kindle strategy, you know, to write Kindle books and he published a Kindle himself and thought now a Jonas now you're going to you have to write a book or a Kindle book about stoicism as you've learned so much on this topic. And actually, that was the reason why I wrote the book in the first place. I never really planned to write the book at some stage and so it was my brother Neil's who urged me a bit. So it's, you know, we tried, or we are this, we still have this very ambitious goal, you know, to do what we ensure you're, you know, it's kind of our passion to learn many things, you know, very, we read very broad and try to get the good lifestyle if you want and we we want to make Living? We would hope you basically are we with our interest. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Tumlinson  32:08

And that, that, of course, that's the goal of practically everyone I know, at this point, especially if you want to be an author, like that's your goal, like everyone wants to make a living doing this thing that they they love doing telling stories or writing about a topic that they're passionate about. So yeah, so that's, that's good. I applaud both you guys. I went in while you're talking. I did look him up on Amazon. His book is stop procrastinating. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Jonas Salzgeber  32:38

Yeah. Yeah, that's

Kevin Tumlinson  32:41

something that authors are very familiar with is procrastination.

Jonas Salzgeber  32:48

He was he was actually the master procrastinator himself. And that's why, you know, we learned a lot, a lot about the stuff.

Kevin Tumlinson  32:56

I tried to master procrastination, but I just kept putting it off that's a joke. Okay, so moving on quickly from that dad joke. Uh, so that's cool, man. So what? What all those? I mean, you guys write and publish articles on on these topics books are apparently part of your strategy what what else is part of the the houses earn? I mean you guys what do you what is this? What's the idea here to for making your living from this stuff? Is it working? Well

Jonas Salzgeber  33:33

we're still finding out it's still a massive challenge you know and it's Yeah, it's we we keep on saying it's part of the process, you know to find our way and we wouldn't want to you know, make anything differently than we did in the past because at that stage, we try to make your best decision to open a new that point and sink in right now. The book is selling really well. It's, yeah, we we've been lucky with the book and probably we've done a couple of things, right. And we're still finding, you know, our perfect path with with making this business because with the monetization so far, we've, while we're still struggling a lot, and at the moment, and planning to create an online course on stoicism x one, yeah, that's something I want to try. And I really look at it as a challenge. You know, I can learn a lot. It's a new skill, you know, to create a course and they can really be creative. I think it's going to be really interesting also to launch the course to our list. And we'll see how this turns out. I think it's, it's cool, you know, because I have a lot to teach on stoic philosophy and I In my own life, it's been really helpful. So I would like to share this, and we'll see how it's going to work with this course. But I'm still on the on the first, you know, first step field one.

Kevin Tumlinson  35:16

Yeah. But you're on the step. You're not thinking about it and thinking maybe I'll do it someday you actually are building something. That's the point. That's fantastic, man. You're gonna have to let me know when when you've got that going, because I can. I can spread the word about that. So that'll be great. And I'm hoping I'm really hoping that the author community everyone listening embraces the this idea of stoicism as a sort of operating philosophy. It doesn't have to replace anything in your life necessarily. I mean, it's not going to knock out anything else you believe I'm a I'm a Christian, I practice stoicism and I really found it helpful in all aspects of my life. So Hoping that authors kind of pick up on them. So, uh, we're running on time and I wanted to make sure that we mentioned important things. So first up, where can everybody find you and your brother and everything you do online?

Jonas Salzgeber  36:16

Yeah, you mentioned it. It's enchi life fx.com that's we're not big on social media at this stage so website and you'll find everything there.

Kevin Tumlinson  36:29

Okay, yeah, social media. Social media requires a whole other level of stoicism these days great, man. All right. Well, look, I'm looking forward to hearing more about the course as you guys develop it and now I've got a I've gotta go pick up your brother's book and read so maybe I'll have him on the show sometime. Yeah, we can tag team will do will do a whole group thing sometime. But anyway, thank you so much for spending into the time with this man, I this is great information. And I'm really grateful to you for the book and for what you've done here. So, thank you very much. Congratulations on it.

Jonas Salzgeber  37:13

Thank you. I really enjoyed this talk with you, man.

Kevin Tumlinson  37:16

Well, we'll have to do it again sometime. So that said, though, everybody listening, thank you for tuning in right now you're probably hearing the groovy bridge music you might add some place to will. And I hope you enjoyed this interview Jonas and stick around I'm sure to say something interesting. I just gotta after this, so we'll see no sign. A you're looking for a jump on your own indie, author, career but kind of confused about where to start. I got the place for you check out draft to digital. That's where you're going to be able to convert your manuscript, distributed worldwide online and get help the whole way from the best authors support there is trust me on this one. So go check out draft to digital and draft a digital.com slash word slinger. Hey, I hope you enjoyed that interview. And I hope you picked up a little something useful about stoicism as a way of life and philosophy seems like something that's particularly relevant right now as we as we deal with you know, scenarios like the whole thing going on with the RGBA. And now nink is involved with cries for diversity and people resigning and people making accusations that it's hard to know who to follow hard know who to believe, and hard to make some personal decisions about what you should do. And so, there's, that's a perfect opportunity to start practicing a philosophy like this in mind. Because you know, there's people are saying some inflammatory things and our first my first reaction often is the one to respond and say something and I decided that I like the Martin Luther King philosophy of this, I've decided to stick with love because hate is too heavy a burden to bear. And I'm paraphrasing and I probably got it all wrong, so but it's still true. And and that's the way I'm going to pursue it. So hopefully I've armed you with some tools to help you face the the ever shifting, ever hurtful world out there so that you can make some decisions and gain some strength and wisdom from within. So, which is a resource you can always count on. If you build those muscles at a rate, take care of yourselves out there. This is interesting times we live in. We're under the Chinese curse now. We live in interesting times. But I think there's a lot of cool stuff ahead through really interesting stuff ahead. And speaking of stuff ahead, I'm going to be dropping in an interview I did with Joe Pin, very soon discussing her new book audio for authors. And we make some predictions in there. And I've gotten some confirmation on a couple things since that interview from some insiders in the know in the audio for authors industry. And it's just a little odd that it all kind of worked out, it all kind of became reality or it will become reality. So there's some interesting things ahead. So you're gonna want to tune in for that interview. I should, I should post that within the next couple of weeks, maybe even the next week. So stick around for them. Otherwise, God bless you. Hope you're having a wonderful day so far. I hope you have a wonderful weekend ahead and hope you get some real solid writing done.

Jonas Salzgeber  40:50

I will

Kevin Tumlinson  40:51

I will see you next time.

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