Kevin Tumlinson

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Audio and AI for Authors with Joanna Penn // EP207

Kevin Tumlinson

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Audio and AI for Authors with Joanna Penn // EP207 Kevin Tumlinson

Joanna Penn is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers under J.F.Penn and also writes non-fiction for authors. She’s also a podcaster and an award-winning creative entrepreneur. Her site, TheCreativePenn.com has been voted in the Top 100 sites for writers by Writer's Digest.

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audio, voice, book, podcast, people, author, audio books, joanna penn, ai, technologies, nonfiction, copyright, create, conference, indie author, listeners, audiobooks, space, talking, kevin tumlinson

SPEAKERS

Joanna Penn, Kevin Tumlinson

Kevin Tumlinson  00:00

Hey slingers, we're talking audio and AI with Joanna Penn. So stick around.

Kevin Tumlinson  01:02

Well, that's my cue and this is Kevin Tumlinson the word slinger. And I'm really happy you're here because we are going to have a great chat with Joanna pen. You may know her from the creative pen podcast, which is another excellent author oriented by guest, you're definitely gonna want to check that out. And you can go to the show notes of this episode, you'll find a link to the creative pin comments pin with two n's will remind regularly on the creative pen podcast. You may have heard my voice on that. on that show. I've been a guest a couple of times, but I've also been a recurring feature of sorts because of the ads I do for drafted digital so that's just a little aside, but if you don't know her from the creative pen podcast, you may know her as an author. She writes both nonfiction and fiction, but she's got a great collection of books for The indie author, helping you build and grow your author career. So, yeah. So anyway, john is a good friend. And you know, I bumped into her at conferences and things all the time. And it's always a good time. It's always fun to to hang out with Joanna. And it was fun to hang out with her for this episode as well because we are talking. This is a trendy subject right now we're talking about audio books. Now. She has a new book coming out soon. If you're listening to this in the future, it may already have download downloaded to your reading device. But she's got a book coming up called audio for authors and it is about all the various audio related technologies in the indie authors space. And that includes audio books, podcasting, like this show, voice technologies of all kinds and we get into a lot of this including some discussion about AI and That's going to be a game changer for for this industry and for this particular segment of the industry as well. So you're gonna love this chat stick around after we'll do a little while I'll have something to chat with you about the other side. And I hope you enjoy this interview with joining us.

Kevin Tumlinson 

Hey everybody now do not adjust your, your set, don't adjust your radios you're about to hear a very familiar voice in the in the author space. And that is Joanna pen. You know her from all sorts of things, but probably the creative pen podcast, above all and she's got a huge body of work both in nonfiction and fiction, and I could not be happier to refer to her as a friend even if she won't acknowledge me in return, so Joanna, thank you for being on the show.

Joanna Penn  03:56

Oh, thanks for having me, Kevin. Of course. We're friends. I've drunk Too many gyms around you. So,

Kevin Tumlinson  04:03

yeah. So there we are. We have some dubious history at times. I mean,

Joanna Penn  04:10

that's what happens when you've been around this space for way too long and gone to too many conferences and you know, done too many podcasts and you've been on my show. In fact, you're on my show regularly with your lovely voice. I know with Georgia did you do anyway, so all my listeners know, fan mail

Kevin Tumlinson  04:25

for those ad spots?

Joanna Penn  04:27

Yes.

Kevin Tumlinson  04:29

Yeah, exactly. No, it's, it's good. You know, and I think voice brand is super important. And you certainly have one. Oh, well, thank you. And yeah, and that that's a lovely dovetail into what we're actually talking about today, because you've got a book coming out called audio for authors. And I know there's a subtitle wait audio books, podcasting and voice technologies by joanna pen and all that right there just recommends it but you and I both have a real love for audio, I think you actually go to next level with this stuff. So once you Tell me a little bit about the book. what's the what's the sort of origin of it?

Joanna Penn  05:04

Well, I think so What happened? I mean, obviously, I've been podcasting since 2009 and was listening to podcast listening. You know, back when it was podio books, I used to listen to podcast fiction. So I've been kind of a consumer and a producer in the podcast space for over a decade and then 2015 when sex opened up to the UK, I got into audio books and narrated, started narrating my own and then last year 2019 things really started hotting up. So I personally, I got voice coaching and started narrating from fiction. So I started to get into the craft of audio, which I hadn't really before. You know, we can do podcasting. We can do breaking, but there's a craft to narration. So I started to get into that. Then I went to podcast movement in middle of 2019 in Orlando, and the stats that they're talking about around podcasting so over 50% of people over the age of 12 in the US how Now listen to a podcast. So that was they said, this is like a tipping point podcasting is now a mainstream thing. And and this is also marked by the fact that money has come into podcasting. So there's much more advertising spend in the podcasting space and the knowledge of the influencers who are podcasts. So that was one thing. And then on the other hand, we've got the audio books. Now the fastest growing segment in publishing, you know, double digit growth for the last seven years, as reported by the audio Publishers Association, all of this and then I was at Frankfurt Book Fair talking about, you know, the global spread of audio books, find the way voices obviously bringing wide audio. So all of these things have kind of converged for me and I realized that I was getting more questions about audio about how to do audio books how to do podcasting, plus, I'm a total AI geek. And you and I both discussed the script which we can come back to you. I've got my voice double done. I've looked at voice since looking at voice search, you know, Google birds hit my website in October. And things have really changed in SEO. So I guess by now is because everything has come together to make this the most, I think the most important topic right now for authors, creatives, anybody who who creates audio or who wants to reach people who are in an audio first environment, which includes people like me, because that's how I, how I consume.

Kevin Tumlinson  07:31

And it's interesting because it's become more and more for me the primary way that I'll consume books now because of you were pointing me before the show, we were talking about what I website and your know, the stuff I'm into and the stuff you're into, and it's just an onslaught of work, right? And audio has become my primary means of, you know, consuming information at this point.

Joanna Penn  07:58

Exactly. You can do it while doing other things. Which is why it is becoming so dominant and in some markets, audio books outsell ebooks. So what we've got is and this is going to only carry on spreading with, you know, five g with me, you know, faster speeds with more options for authors direct refinery, which hopefully will be international at 2020. So we can all we can all do much more and I'm the same as you. So I basically nonfiction now I almost entirely consumed by audio book. And if your if your book if you're a nonfiction writer, and you don't have an audio book, and you're not on podcasts, I won't know who you are. Like, I won't find your book or I'm listening to a podcast and someone says, you know, is interviewed and they talk about something. And I go to my app, and I look for that audio book. And I if it's there, I add it to my wish list if I don't if it's not there, it's done. So there's lots of people who are missing out on this audio first consumer market. I think

Kevin Tumlinson  08:58

I'm one of those people. I'm Going to be honest with you would like, out of 50 books I have like four that are available for audio. And so I've really got to step up my game but and you know why really, because getting each book produced is either a huge time commitment or a huge cost and overhead financially for both.

Joanna Penn  09:20

Yes, so well, there are definitely some caveats here. So first of all, that's why nonfiction is so much easier. So if you're listening and you write nonfiction, there's seriously no excuse because you can do it most nonfiction listeners like me, like, like you. I listened at 1.5 speed anyway, most of the time, I don't know or care who the narrator is, I just want the information. So that's one that's one point. There I agree on the fiction is very expensive. And this is where I have an opinion. And since we're friends, I'm just going to bring out my opinion, okay. So the reason I

Kevin Tumlinson  09:55

always end up swaying me to do the right thing, so

Joanna Penn  09:59

I do it We have a section of the book, which is the money side of this stuff and whether it's worth doing. And so I'm not saying that everyone should immediately go do that book in audio. But what I think the third section in the book is about voice technologies. And this voice since stuff is really important. So 2019 was also the year of the deep fake, in fact, I think was one of the words of the year. So if people don't know, go, obviously be careful. But if you there's a Instagram channel where they had, you know, Zuckerberg and Donald Trump and Obama and you know, our Prime Minister Boris Johnson, all saying things that they didn't say, to prove a point about deep fake voices and video and the fact is that voice synthesis is now real. So for example, you can get Samuel L Jackson on your Alexa now, right, just launched in December and it's not really Samuel L Jackson. Surprisingly, it is his voice in He will answer questions and things. So why licensing is already happening. So what I think is going to happen in the next couple of years is that we will get the technology that will enable us to produce audio faster and cheaper with synthesized voices. And the stores will allow it so that at the moment you cannot publish a synthesized voice audiobook. But I believe that will change in I'm picking in the next two years. So by that say, by the sea by 2023. Yeah, we're going to have options that way. And so if you are sitting on a backlist, like you are or, you know, many people are, should you do it? Well, this is where you have to decide if you can license your audio for seven years to a professional organization and get rights back in seven years. Yeah, that would seem to me the best option for fiction. If you can't, then it might be worth waiting. If you don't want to do it yourself or do a voices share we find a way or that type of thing. So What do you think about the voice since

Kevin Tumlinson  12:02

I I'm really excited about it and as I see the, the way they keep, you know, improving it is very, it's getting me really worked up. And not my approach this right now would be if I if I use one of the voice and technologies pardon me I've got like a thing going in my throat I would go ahead and produce the entire book. But as I'm reviewing it and and looking for glitches and stuff, I would just quickly record my own version of whatever line got flooded. So I would use it as assistive technology.

Joanna Penn  12:37

And that is exactly what's going to happen there. I agree with you. And this is this is also why it's exciting for people like us and anyone listening if you feel that you have a voice we all have a voice right but a lot of people you know might consider narrating yourself what you're talking about is correct. The thing is you can only train a voice double a data set you know with a data set of your And what I what I'm finding very interesting about this is the copyright issues around voice recordings, meaning that most famous narrators do not own their voices or they don't own their voice recording. So a famous narrator might not have enough data to train an AI, whereas you and I will have enough data because we own our recordings. So this is another really exciting thing about being an independent creator. And audio is creation. People don't just think about it as all just another format, it's actually creation. So I agree with you, I think we will have assistive technologies where we might have a dashboard where we will edit like, you know, sound editing, where you can add in splicing and things.

Kevin Tumlinson  13:41

Yeah. Now, I'm glad you brought up the the copyright question. Because this is it's creating some interesting conundrums in IP law, because it's not something anybody ever considered before. Just like most emerging innovations in technology like no one no one ever thought about. The consequences of this deep fake, you know, people are taking a closer look at the whole deep fake thing to see. Where's the line? And I think the same sort of question is being asked about audio if you if you run across any of that in your explorations.

Joanna Penn  14:15

Okay, well say first of all AI and copyright. This is a now question because as we speak on Thursday, whatever the 16th of January 2020, just last weekend, the first copyright has been granted to an AI in China, as reported on VentureBeat, I don't know when this is going out, but I haven't even mentioned this on my show, because I haven't recorded my show for next week yet. And

Kevin Tumlinson  14:39

I have to I have to release this immediately after we were quite easy for me to join me.

Joanna Penn  14:47

But this but you're right and this, maybe I'll send you a link and put it in the show notes. But the fact that this is on writing, this is not an audio so an AI. It's called like dream writer or something is created work that has is considered original enough to have copyright applied when someone else plagiarized it. Copyright was granted. So this is the first case and the US Patent Office, patent and copyright office has put out a call for people to comment on this. And that call is now closed in the US. So they've had up until quite recently, you could send comments in about AI and copyright. So I believe that something will be coming from the US patents and copyright office around this stuff. So I, I did speak to some voice people around this. And again, as you say, there's no if I if I load all my voice up, and there isn't a voice double who does that belong to technically it really belongs to the two descript. And I talked to them about this and I truly believe they want to do the right thing as do many companies. But there has to be a value chain and this is the thing there's value in our copyright. So what we have have to do is think well, Where can the value chain still benefit us? And I believe voice licensing is important for this because it means I can't physically generate all the audio books that I would like to generate. But if I could license my voice, you could get my voice for a lot cheaper, you know, road than me doing it. So I think voice licensing is going to be the thing that causes the explosion of ubiquitous audio, like every written text will be available in audio and every audio will be available in written text, like that's coming very soon. But in terms of copyright of recordings, I think we have to be aware of that. But yeah, I mean, there are so many questions that we're going to face in this next decade around AI and copyright. But I, I really believe that it's important for people to engage with and that's why I've got several chapters in the book about around these very topics. At the moment, people just hold up their hands and go I don't want anything to do with that. Someone else sorted out, but we should be engaging,

17:02

right? I think

Kevin Tumlinson  17:05

my perspective on this is that licensing of the voices is going to be very similar to what we already do with like stock photography and video and music. Like I think you could probably, like create a, you know, created I don't know how what to call the encapsulated form. Yeah, a library right. That's it, that's good enough. So I think that, you know, I would create this library, but I that's where I see voice talent really starting to kind of kind of get into their own in this because I know guys vigman yanna, for example, good friend of mine, he's a voice actor. He'll he can do 100 different voices. So what's who's to say he can't create libraries based on all those voices and then, you know, license them out. So that's, that's how I see that working.

Joanna Penn  17:55

I think you're exactly right. And, in fact, I was talking about that. The copyright of music for us for us in podcast and how important it is to find you know, some music in a jingle or whatever and I used audio jungle.net and it's you know it there are hundreds of thousands of these short little song falls that you find and I think you're right it will be something like that what I also see is so for example, I've bought an audiobook So say I say I've bought one of your audiobooks Kevin and it's an but I you know as much as I love your voice, I would actually rather it was read by a British female because we you know, I just all I don't always wants to listen to male American voices, which is what most audio books and a rated in. So what if I can on my app, choose the voice I want so I can switch it so it doesn't become one product anymore. It becomes lots of different ways to use a product and you get paid because you were the original voice and my voice say as the British female gets a micro payment for the last license for that lesson. So we into the streaming kind of more Spotify model for songs and the micro payments solution. But I love your idea of, you know, similar to those stock photography sites and stock music royalty free kind of stock music sites.

Kevin Tumlinson  19:19

It's another way that people were empowered, you know, as creators at that point, I think, you know, so that would be very interesting. And I think that the that idea of being able to select a different voice for the production is spot on, first of all, and brilliant. And I were already kind of being groomed for that with things like being able to choose a different voice for Siri and Alexa. And that's

Joanna Penn  19:46

exactly what we expect. Yeah, we expect to be able to do that on Netflix, you can actually change the accents of the actors. And you know, you can do you can do all of that. But I'm circling back. I mean, you and I can geek out on this but for the listener listeners most people are not I understand that most people listening are not might be in that position but what I think for creators so think about this if you're a creator so one you get to get your book into audio cheaper, but to you can do much more interesting things. So and I'm assuming an easy an easy way to edit a bit, you know, bit like a Scrivener drag and drop or you know, a vellum for audio. But so for example, you can actually have me as a character voice in your audio and Kevin as a character voice in the audience. So it's not even just one voice

Kevin Tumlinson  20:33

cast or production,

Joanna Penn  20:36

production and you can because at the moment, what is not open to us as Indies. I mean, it's it's expensive to do a one person read. It is entirely out of the realms of possibility generally, for us to do a multicast production.

Kevin Tumlinson  20:51

Ironically, I could do a multicast production cheaper than I could do. A single narrator Yes, because of my have

Joanna Penn  20:59

to do all of them. Audio splicing, a hell of a lot of work.

Kevin Tumlinson  21:02

As long as I'm the one editing, it's cheaper if I have to hire an editor, it's not cheaper.

Joanna Penn  21:07

Exactly. But this is what I want people to think about with audio is it's not just I write a book, and then I get it recorded as an audio book, or I do a podcast. And that's that there's so much potential for audio creation, that takes our work into a different field. Also, for example, if you have a screenplay in your back pocket, like I have a few, and many people do, or you can adapt your work to your screenplay, you can adapt it to a radio play, and suddenly you can create a new product from your book. And so there's, you know, those are just some ideas for what what you can do with the potential technologies that that are coming. And the thing is, I know a lot of this stuff is not available to do right now as we speak. But this AI copyright law that just went through not law, this case that went through in China. I thought that was years away. Like I really did not I was not expecting AI to be granted copyright in 2020. So I didn't know I mean, I wrote a script think end of 2021 I think off you know, not officially but you know, end of 2021 might be when we see voices available. So who knows I personally am not going to start my new series in audio until I'm more sure of what's going on in in the space because of course, you know, you either shell out thousands of dollars or you do it yourself which is a lot of work. All you license it and of course licensing it with a great studio is a good idea, but most indies don't get that chance. So I I know that there's a lot of options right now. But it might be worth waiting is what I'm saying. Like for your backlist. It might just be worth waiting.

Kevin Tumlinson  22:55

That's kind of the that's kind of where I am my gut I every now and then I get the bug I'm gonna go I'm going to record myself and I've got the background and equipment and everything I need to do it what I lack is the time so

Joanna Penn  23:10

we'll see what what is more valuable and I mean personally I've made the decision that it's the non nonfiction if you have nonfiction people I suggest doing it ASAP because there's money it's so much easier to market nonfiction or nonfiction audio listeners are not sensitive to price so I will use a credit on my you know, people use credits or nonfiction audio even if it's like three hours. Yeah. So and it's much cheaper to produce because it's like three hours instead of 15. So right yeah, yeah. So nonfiction and my recommendation is Yeah, nonfiction work, yet worth doing. All license fiction if you can, but for seven years so you can get it back. Or royalty share, I guess or voice your share.

Kevin Tumlinson  24:00

Lots of nifty ways to do this now looks like they're going to be creating more brands that find a way voices can't go into too many details.

Joanna Penn  24:12

Oh, yeah. And they're opening up marketing channels with checkbooks and yeah, you know, there's a lot I think this is the thing. You and I have been an audio for a long time was it six years you've been doing this show? Six years, six years, and I've been I've been a decade I'm so old and space, but seems to us It feels like we've been around forever and doing this forever. But for most people, actually just just that dipping their toe in just getting started discovering podcasts. So I think we need to think that we're kind of if you think about ebooks, we're kind of in 2010.

Kevin Tumlinson  24:48

Yes, the 2010. That's how I described it too. Yeah, those early cowboy days of ebooks. That's where we are with audio,

Joanna Penn  24:57

when there was no real ecosystem. For my marketing you know, that was even before k you know, hopefully audio won't go down that space but I suppose it already has with a cx.

Kevin Tumlinson  25:08

I'm not going to say who it was because I don't I don't want backlash from him because I really like him. But a, a well known very successful author in our space in the indie space has gone on record with me saying that there's no way to to market audiobooks. Now how do you feel about that?

Joanna Penn  25:30

Well, that's a shame because I have a whole chapter in the book with I'm just gonna see how many Actually I have. I have 16 bullet points in one chapter on how to market audiobooks. Yeah, what I will say since we're podcasting, and because the, you know, podcasting comes into this voice ecosystem, and that's what I want people to think this is an ecosystem. This is not a way just go on one podcast episode and suddenly everyone knows me. I put one audio book up and suddenly I've made money in audio. It's almost like the more you're in the ecosystem, the more people find you, the more you appear and the sales happen. So that's one thing. It's like when people say, How do I sell books wide? The answer is the same, which is every single piece of marketing helps you sell books Why? And in the same way to sell audio books, you need to be in that audio space. So get on podcast pitch podcast, and in the book actually give an example of a really bad pitch and a really good pitch. And there's more podcasts than ever so there's something for everyone in every niche or create something. So being in audio is a good way to sell audio. I tell you another really good trick is getting a bookbub deal or doing bookbub ads because people don't like me and my husband here just rabid audiobook listeners. We will get a book on an E book on bookbub on a bookbub deal because of Amazon matchmake. Rich will essentially match your audio book with your ebook, and you get it for a cheaper price. Right? So what you do if you promote your ebook is you'll sell more audiobooks to audio listeners. So that's it. That's a little little tip. I can. I can vouch for that, too. That does happen. Because people I see spikes when the books that I have that are in audio go on bookbub I see a spike all across the board. So people are paying attention. Well, this is the thing I think the white thing applies. It's like any what people prefer to read in the way that they read. So if you want me to read your audio, your non fiction, audio, your non fiction book, it better be available in audio. And then if I hear about you, however I hear about you, and I want to buy your book, I choose the audio format. This is why as authors, we have to have our books available in multiple formats. And in that way, the reader or listener gets to choose which one they buy. Yeah,

Kevin Tumlinson  27:59

yeah. So, okay, I want to talk a little bit about because you brought up the script, which is a interesting tool I've been tinkering around with. It's mostly for editing podcasts and videos at this point, but the way it does it is through their AI system. Is that is that something you're using regularly? Are you using it with creative pen?

Joanna Penn  28:19

Yeah, so what I've started it and this is another little marketing tip is audiograms. So there's a couple of really cool things you can do descript I mean, first of all, you can actually I have a tip for you because I've seen some of your transcripts Is there a I assisted transcript can remove filler words, so it will remove um, and whatever it will remove it from your audio, and it will remove it from your transcript. So there's a little tip with one click of a button you can remove all the arms and

Joanna Penn  28:52

get rid of

Kevin Tumlinson  28:53

funny though is what if I run it now that no one's gonna know what the hell you were just talking about? Because I'll sit This is gonna be blank.

Joanna Penn  29:01

Okay, I just said the word. Yeah, that's a good point. I just said a word.

Joanna Penn  29:07

I just said a filler word. And now we're trying to reflect it. But there is a tool that can remove filler words, right? Um, and, um, I know I can't get away from it, we're circling. But

29:21

you have to edit this.

Kevin Tumlinson  29:23

No way. No way works. And I'll show you know, take a breath.

Joanna Penn  29:28

audiograms grams is what we're talking about. So I use headline out. You can also use wave, which is why VV, what you do with the script, it's really easy. You highlight the text and this is the problem with audio, right? It's very hard to find the sentence and snip it out unless you spend ages going through the audio. What you can do with the script is you just highlight the text and then you say exit and you can create an audio clip within seconds. Then what you can do is make a little waveform In headline now, which is a little video, you can put that on YouTube you can put it on Instagram and put it on Facebook. So to advertise audio you want to use audio I think as writers we're so used to using written text but why would you use written text to advertise audio? So audio grams are this kind of new way of advertising of snippets using snippets of audio to advertise your podcast advertise your audio book. And that's something I'm focusing on this year is starting to really do more audio marketing with audio grounds as well as things like putting these you can put those clips on YouTube for example, and social media you can play video now on on pretty much any social media like Twitter now you can embed a you know 15 second video, the waveform of the of the podcast,

Kevin Tumlinson  30:53

right? Yeah, I've seen I've seen seen that coming up more and more. So I know there's there are two Was I've been playing around with some I use otter.ai for my transcription now. And it's got some of these tools, but then but I've been looking at these scripts, kind of maybe switching,

Joanna Penn  31:10

and then what descript has, which will be the technology possibly, I mean, I'm sure there are other ones but the so I can type. So if you go to the creative pen, calm forward slash voice double, I've got some recordings of my voice double there. And how that happens is I go into the script, I type the sentences so I'm starting with my written words, then I say, overdub, and it creates that with my voice. So that's what you can listen to on the slash voice web link in the show notes. I'm sure you and you can hear it. What's interesting is we trained one voice on my audio narration, which is quite serious. And the other one on my podcast voice, which was much more upbeat, but it just wasn't such high quality. So I must pronounce things better when reading audio books. So the quality is better with the audio book narration but the emotional resonance is probably better with the podcast. So I'm hoping Well, I'm sure what will happen over time is the more data I produce, the more I can load up the next iteration, the next iteration will just get better.

Kevin Tumlinson  32:20

Yeah. Yeah, these are scary things. For some people. By the way, this idea of voice doubles and yeah,

Joanna Penn  32:30

the thing is, okay, so this is the thing, and this is why I want people to engage with it. It is scary. It's scary for privacy reasons. It's scary for robots taking our jobs reasons. There. I had a when this AI thing happened in China, the weekend I was sitting there going, Okay, this is really big. This is I was thinking this is years away. What does this mean? And this is why I keep saying on my show, and have done for many years especially with this ad obsession is it's about personal brand. It's about finding a community attracting a community, being part of a community who love you and care for you and really still want you to make a living and also want to buy your stuff and also create things for that community. And so to me, the thing we should be doing is just doubling down on being human like be as human as possible. Do not write a book that has none of you in it. It has to be emotion it has to be nonfiction or fiction has to be you build a brand with your voice like this, you can license it later but you know all video I'm I shy away I shy away from video, but I'm going to do more of it this year because I'm real, this ain't a deep fake. really know that, you know, all this is just your AMIA chapter, but I'm going to do More live events. So I'm thinking of running events here in barf. I'm speaking more speaking at a number of places around the world this year, and really just being more human, I literally think that is the way forward. So don't think about it as well. You can accept that it might be scary. But the reality is that you can't stop this stuff. And I keep using the metaphor, we want to surf the wave rather than drown in it. And the thing is, we can surf the wave because we know it's coming. And we can move quickly because we're in these people can't move quickly are the ones who don't control their IP.

Kevin Tumlinson  34:40

Right, exactly. Right. And on that note, I think we're at a really good natural stopping point. So

Joanna Penn  34:49

a techie show,

Kevin Tumlinson  34:50

no, you know, I don't think it was tacky. I mean, it's kind of like at the end there. It's almost like you were saying that the AI nine actually free us up to get away from our devices. Death be amongst the three dimensional people.

Joanna Penn  35:03

Yes. In the mountains and the rivers and stuff. Let's go. Rivers and right

Kevin Tumlinson  35:09

now I like it that, quote Joanna pen.

Joanna Penn  35:13

Yeah, that can be the title for the show be more human,

Kevin Tumlinson  35:16

more human. Now I got to type that in the show notes. Thanks. So okay, well look, I as always I I really I always enjoy having you on the show meeting you in person and chatting. We'll have to get together again soon sometime. I'm sure I'm sure will surely

Joanna Penn  35:35

if people enjoy this conversation, I am actually narrating the audiobook version of audio for office. That will be available.

Kevin Tumlinson  35:43

Are you are you running it through the script?

Joanna Penn  35:46

No, no, I am actually doing it. And also obviously the creative pen podcast if you want to pop on over.

Kevin Tumlinson  35:55

All right, excellent. Yeah, check that out. All those things are going to be in the show notes or by never you feel Joanna, thank you so much for being a part of the show. And everyone else right now you're probably hearing the groovy bridge music, you may dance and place it will and stick around for some sort of wisdom on the other side. Well, that was Joanna pen. I hope you enjoyed that interview. Hold on a second. I had to make a little adjustment there. You may have heard the slight ring. That's the we call that the word slinger adjustment ring whenever I moved the swing arm for them. So anyway, um, I really enjoyed talking to john about about everything really but when it comes to stuff like this now john is a futurist. You know, she she likes to project what's going to happen in this space down the road based on the research she's done and the conversation she has. I'm I'm somewhat of a futurist myself. I speculate on what's will What's coming, and it's kind of interesting to see what works and what doesn't. But in the audio space for authors, I just think there's incredible, they're incredible leaps ahead in the very, very near future. I mean, like within within 2020, I think we're going to see some, some really impressive shifts in technology. And a lot of that is being powered by AI, which, you know, AI is still this young technology, and there are all kinds of, frankly, frightening connotations to the whole thing. Implications might be a better word or implications can be a little scary when it comes to AI. When you start thinking about things like the Terminator, that sort of thing, Skynet taking over. But in terms of assistive technology, I mean, if it doesn't try to rule us as a species, I think we've got some pretty interesting days ahead. I'm going to be real curious to see how things go. And in the audio space in particular, I think it's just, it's already, it's already doing just incredible stuff. We talked about the script. We talked about wave and otter. All those technologies are branching out. I noticed yesterday that there's been a sudden improvement in the automated transcript for my voicemails that comes across on my Verizon iPhone. I don't know if that's a Verizon technology or an apple technology, I assume it's apple. But I noticed that suddenly voicemails are getting a much cleaner transcript something something quite usable, actually. So that's been interesting. And of course, I use otter AI for the show notes for this show. And I'm, I'll just say I'm a little lazy about it because I just don't, I just don't have time to sit and edit them. The way I should I try to do it gives some spot editing here and there. But for the most part, I just dumped that thing. Right, right up to the show notes page. So you're welcome audience. Um, yeah, I probably owe you more than that. So anyway, those technologies are profound. I can't wait to see how that impacts the industry going forward. Now, in addition to all the things we discussed in this episode, actually, shifting gears a little, do a little housekeeping stuff. So I am. I'm going to be at some conferences coming up. Actually, one conference in particular, I wouldn't be at the San Francisco writers conference in February. That's in a couple of weeks. I can't find the exact date actually. But that is, I'm going to be doing a couple of cool things there. One of which is running a course built built around my 30 day author book And I just I've been developing some content about that around that for a little while now. But I thought I'd let you guys know in case you're going to be in the Bay Area, I guess you can swing by. I don't know how talented right now.

Kevin Tumlinson  40:19

And I'm not seeing it on the website. So Oh, it's the Hyatt Regency. So swing by the Hyatt Regency. I think there's still tickets available to attend the conference if you want. But even if she just came to the hotel, you'd probably bump into some of us. in the lobby, one of the one of the former a couple of former guests from the show are going to be at the conference. Jonathan Mayberry is going to be there. He was way back in like 2015. I interviewed Jonathan. So check that out. I'm going to be Brooke Warner is going to be there. She's been on the show. There's going to be quite a few folks who have been words on your podcast guests in the past So I'm gonna be running a course, on the final day of the conference about three hours. And I'm also doing I'm thinking I'm on like six panels and I'm doing a presentation on my own and a couple of other things. Like doing some kind of like, meet and greet or whatever. I don't know it's gonna be a rip roaring time for all so pop in. If you get a chance and maybe you can rescue me We'll go get out of the hotel and go enjoy ourselves in San Francisco somewhere for a bit below awesome. Conference stress. Aside from that, I am I have today Friday the 31st Nick factor and I are doing a webinar and it's a we're going to try again on one that just completely fell apart on us a few weeks ago, early in the early in the year from India early in the month. January, which is also early in the year. We were doing a 20 subscribers in 2020 or 20 20,000 subscribers in 2020. So, just a little bit of what kind of playing a little bit on, you know, he and I are launching author email. And this is about list building and doing some marketing to help you increase your platform and, you know, reach more readers. So, it kind of build your own book, Bob is basically what we're trying to help people do. So, you might want to tune in for that that's going to be happening today, Friday the 31st at 2pm Central Time. Depending on how quickly this episode goes live today. It may it may, it may actually go live after the webinar is completed. So if that's the case, no worries, you'll still be able to catch that online. Now I've created a new YouTube channel for three minutes. And I've also created a new YouTube page for author email. I believe that's Facebook, I'm sorry, Facebook page, not YouTube page. I believe that's facebook.com slash author email. I believe. And I don't have a unique URL for the YouTube channel yet. We have to have 100 subscribers before I can do that. But if you search for author email, maybe you can find it. But zoom on over to author email author dot email or author email calm, and you can actually sign up to get on the waiting list to be boarded into the service, you get some free, some free time on it was like a 30 day free trial, I think. I think that's where we've landed so far. And you know, I've been using author email now for about four years. So it's Nick, and it's, it's been great. So I'm really looking forward to launching this for the author community.

Kevin Tumlinson  43:58

So there is that I've been doing some webinars with indie author blueprint, which is something I've started with Roland and Zell, Roland, Denzil, I apologize Roland. But he and I have been put pulling together a new service for authors that helps you find resources to help you build and grow your author career favorite phrase of mine. But that's a that's what that's all about. It's kind of a clearinghouse of vetted products, services, books, podcasts, blog posts, content that's out there that's useful to the author and there's nothing on there at the moment that cost you anything now well, other than the products you might purchase, but we don't sell those directly yet. However, I'll down the road will probably offer some things like courses and books and you know, other products created directly for that platform. But I don't I don't want to gouge people anything. I just want to provide something that allows you to You know, get some get some benefit out of this stuff. We come across things all the time, I just want to be a clearinghouse for this kind of information. So that's what indie author blueprints going to be about. And we've done some webinars, you know, kind of getting the hang of live streams and webinars now. So I'm starting to do a lot more of them. So and of course, drafted digital, we just did a, our January DVD live was and now you can go to D to D live.com. By the way, so that's a cool one. Check that out because that is that is a really useful set of information that comes to you every month, and we tend to offer some free one on one author consultations as part of that. So if you're there live, you can actually pop in and get a if you if they're not if they're not taken their Cindy left on the schedule, you can pop in and get a 30 minute free consultation with me, Mark Lafave or Dan wood and talk about your where you are in your career, what your goals are, what you're trying to accomplish. And we can give some advice on in all kinds of categories. So that's it. Yeah, I'm doing a lot more webinar stuff, a lot more of that kind of content is going up out there. So I'm hoping that's going to be useful to you and a lot of it's gonna look a lot like because I'm running most of it. So it's kind of like it's the Kevin Tumlinson webinar or live stream partnering with this person, this person or that company. Maybe that's a thing. Let me know if you think that's a good idea. Um, so anyway, so here we are. I think that wraps this up. I don't have any other. I got another conference actually going to be speaking at the RGBA in San Antonio in March. And I'm driving. My wife and I are driving up to Oklahoma City Actually, this week. It's been a week up there at the DDD offices and we're going to the thunder game. Is it thunders or Thunder? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know anything about the sports ball. But I am looking forward to hanging out with everybody at a at a game for once. I never get to go to these with them. Because I'm always somewhere else. But we're taking the camera. We take the camera out actually this past weekend to Lake tech Santa that's in Edna Texas, which is near Victoria, Texas, kind of on the coast here. And we spent, you know, four days out at the lake. That was a lot of fun. You know, we were kind of giving the camper a little Shakedown we're getting into it will be into it full time come April. So we're kind of trying to get it all set up, get everything organized, figure out what we can and can't take

Kevin Tumlinson  48:00

And what we can't take is quite a lot we can take is not a lot. But we're we're kind of getting it worked out. So I'm looking forward to that. I mean, it's a, there's something a little scary about it, but also exciting. So that is going to be an adventure. So that's it. I've rambled on long enough. I hope you got a great deal out of this interview with Joanna pen. And I hope that audio is going to work for you as part of your career. There's lots of ways to leverage it. So if you have any questions, of course, pop in ask me and go to the comments for this video or for this podcast on words on your podcast. com is Episode 207. So just you know, you can type that in and look for it. And you can leave comments anywhere else you like. tag me on twitter at Kevin Tumlinson or on Facebook. Just search Kim Thompson on Facebook. You can also reach out to our guest Joanna pen. She's creative And I believe on Twitter. I don't have it in front of me. I'm supposed to have it in front of me. Here we go. Hold on. I miss it. Yeah, the creative pen at the creative pen. All this will be in the show notes at word slinger podcast. com, so pop over there and check it out. And otherwise, hope you had a wonderful time. I know I did. God bless you. Let's try it again. God bless you. And we will see you all next time.

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