Better Negotiation with Peter Johnston // Ep 214

214 - Peter Johnston.gif

PETER D. JOHNSTON is a renowned negotiation expert and bestselling author of Negotiating with Giants, a nonfiction guide to the art and science of negotiation. His pioneering expertise in asymmetric negotiations is sought worldwide by companies and governments. A former journalist and banker, he is a graduate of the Harvard Business School and has been interviewed by CNN, ABC, Fox, The Wall Street Journal, The Globe and Mail and Oprah & Friends.

GUEST LINKS:

SHOW LINKS:

SPONSORS:

TRANSCRIPT

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

book, castle, negotiator, story, negotiating, negotiation, hear, nurse, thriller, author, kevin, people, weapons, write, couple, atomic weapon, podcast, talking, world, giants

SPEAKERS

Wordslinger Announcer, Kevin Tumlinson, Peter Johnston

Kevin Tumlinson  00:00

Well, hello slingers, welcome back to another week of the word. So in your podcast, it's gonna be a very special episode and I'll tell you why. right after this. Hey sometimes it's hard to know where to start when you're building and growing your indie author career and that's why I have put together something just for you, me and my partner Roland Dinsdale and created indie author blueprint, so hop over to indie author blueprint comm start learning about all the ways you can build and grow your own indie author career, but we'll be right there with you all the way. See you there. Indie author, blueprint, calm.

Wordslinger Announcer  00:48

It's the word slinger Podcast, where story matters. build your brand, write your book, redefine who you are. It's all about this story here. What's yours? Now? Here's the guy who invented pants optional. Kevin Tumlinson. No word slinger was

Kevin Tumlinson  01:14

well, I am Kevin Thompson the word slinger. And this like I said, this is a special episode of very special words lunar podcast. Because right now I am actually sitting right out in front of my little travel trailer. The one that Karen I actually living in full time now, as of was about three weeks actually. I'm here in kirksville, Texas, in a beautiful RV Resort of just an amazing resort and you probably hear the sounds of the the resort all around me, actually. You're gonna hear some birds, some kids, some stuff, I could have done this in the truck the way I've done a couple of things already. which actually makes for a perfect little studio. I mean, it's pretty soundproof pretty comfortable. I've actually done quite a few things in there. But you know, the weather right now is perfect here in kerrville. It's it's sunny, it gets up into like the 90s during the day, but it was down to like 54 this morning when I got up and started doing my writing. So I'm actually wearing a hoodie in the middle of June, in the middle of Texas, almost square in the middle of Texas, by the way. So, anyway, um, so that's why this is a special episode. It's also a special episode because of our guests. I'm talking with Peter Johnston. He is he's practiced and renowned negotiation expert. So I think you're going to enjoy this interview. But I wanted to kind of fill you in on what was going on with the hashtag camper life right now Karen Are you know, we're really kind of getting into it. been nice. It's been a way to sort of slow down and reassess. I've been calling this my journey of healing. And that's exactly what it's been. It's been a chance for me to dial back, feel a little less stressed about things kind of explore life from a different angle. It's been kind of stressful the past several months, of course, not just not just because of, you know, things like the pandemic, and, you know, the riots and things like that. But also, you know, Karen, I had spent several months kind of leading up to this journey, and there was a lot of work involved. A lot of, you know, having to figure out what we're going to do with our stuff, which we're actually going to be journeying back to our hometown area, here in the next in July, after July 11. Actually, we're going to be going back down there, we've got a spot on a lake nearby, where we used to live an hour or so out. I'm gonna basically reorganize our storage and spend a week, just going through storage and building shelves and getting things a little better organized because we really just had but because of getting sick and because of conferences, and they rushed to move, and things didn't go as planned, and we just sort of crammed everything in there. So that's been interesting. Figuring out things like how we're handling Wi Fi, has been a challenge. This particular camp has, you can rent DSL modems, which I think is interesting to build a DSL modem, but you can set that up. But I chose not to do that because what I'm trying to do is figure out how we're going to have internet when that sort of option is not available to us. And though this place has free Wi Fi. It's not enough to do a lot of what I need to do like streaming, you know, live streams streaming content that we consume, the stuff that we watch Netflix, things like that. It's It's not good for that. Because so many people use it, it gets bogged down. And if you're ever if everyone's streaming, they say, I don't know why in this day and age, that's a problem but it is and it's something I got to deal with so so there's been some little challenges to this as we've gone along. But I'm I'm really enjoying it I'm really getting something that I hoped I would get out of it, which is a sense of growth, peace. You know, I'm getting I'm experiencing new things, the writing is going well, you know, I'm putting usually around four to 5000 words a day down. And that's just with a couple of hours writing each day. It's not even you know, intensive writing. I'm still doing all the work for draft to digital. Still doing work for author email for indie, author, blueprint for all the things I'm involved in, I'm still doing all that stuff. But somehow maybe it's because those birds But it just feels lighter. So, we're gonna we're gonna keep exploring him. Anyway, I don't want to keep you from the interview too long. I did want to just kind of fill you in on what was going on in my life.

Kevin Tumlinson  06:14

Lots of interesting things happening, get some big announcement coming soon ish. We'll see. We'll see what the timeline ends up being on that. From the draft to digital perspective, a lot of things going on with draft digital. If you have not been checking out our DVD spotlights, you're going to want to check those out. Those are live events we interview a different influencer and we've been doing several a week and we're gonna start cutting them back to two and then maybe one a week live. But those are getting translated into a new podcast which we are launching it has officially launched we're doing a soft launch of it that you can find if you go searching for on the wherever you listen to podcast. If you go search for self publishing influencers, self publishing influencers that that will that will give you the drafted digital official drafted digital podcast. It's not just me, though you will hear my voice in every episode because I do the, the open and the close stuff. But you can hear from Dan wood who is our VP of author relations and our and our good friend and co worker, Mark Leslie Lafave, who is our Director of Business Development at drafter digital and the three of us have been tagged teaming and interviewing a variety of industry influencers, authors, service providers, you know, anyone we can find who has a perspective we think would be helpful to others. There's been a lot of great material for the for the author community in that way, no matter what your level is. That that's been a very good it's, it's not entirely dissimilar from the format of this show or Which is tends to be interview format, but it's a different variety of folks. So tune into that and get something new and get something really useful out of that. We're soft launching that. And we should be able to do, we've got a couple episodes up, and we're going to be doing an episode a week. Going forward with we've got, you know, 20 plus episodes already scheduled lined up. So should be fun. Check that out, you can find that there should be a link I'm not sure if it's up there yet or not. But if you go to D to D live comm that is where we'll be linking out to all things that we're doing live including that podcast. So go and check that out. And for now, I'm going to jump into this interview with Peter Johnston you listen in, get some get some insight. This is all about negotiation. And I think this is gonna be a good one for authors. So check it out and then come around on the other side and then I'll wrap up Up. Everybody, thanks for tuning in to another word senior interview. These are the the interview episodes are kind of my favorites because I get to talk to two people and learn more about how they're doing, what they're doing, how they're, how the works, going, how they're promoting. So these can be real fun. And today I'm talking to Peter Johnston. Now he he's, he's written some nonfiction stuff he wrote, negotiate with giants. A book I have heard of, Peter, and I don't know that I've read but I will check my library later. But first, let me welcome to the show. Welcome on.

Peter Johnston  09:36

Thank you so much, Kevin. It's a pleasure to be talking to you.

Kevin Tumlinson  09:39

Well, I'm looking forward to this because you know, I talked to now thanks to Merrill moss, I end up talking to a lot of thriller authors, which I am very fond of, because I happen to be one. But it's also nice to just talk to people who, you know, you're going to understand, like the challenges of this. The things that are the things The challenges I face in this so it's good to have a sympathetic ear. But so you, you've got kind of an eclectic background like you're not just you know, you've been at this game for a little while just not in the fiction realm, right?

Peter Johnston  10:14

That's right. Yeah, negotiating with giants came out to about 10 years ago, Kevin, and was well received. And I do consulting work around the world with companies and governments, and high net worth individuals dealing with everything from MMA to civil wars in Africa to art hice. And so I don't have that much time to write. So I write late at night. And after I'd written negotiating with giants, I was approached to write further nonfiction. And I just decided with a young family, I had to be passionate about writing and if I was going to do something this time, I wanted it to keep me up at night and get me excited, and that's why I chose fiction.

Kevin Tumlinson  10:58

Yeah. It's a leap. I know from having I've written nonfiction as well. So nothing as potent as negotiating with giants. But it is leap. Did you find the experience to be dramatically different? Or was there some crossover that that came in handy?

Peter Johnston  11:16

There was crossover for me because negotiating with giants was basically 150 stories from across history dating back to Magna Carta. Yeah. And the king negotiating with the barons all the way through Mandela, Ben Franklin, right up to present day. So the format, and I think why negotiating with giants has been successful is the format is storytelling. And all I was doing was telling a different story and a longer one in a fiction format. But inspired by two true stories from the Second World War.

Kevin Tumlinson  11:49

I was going to ask because, I mean, I've heard little hints of things about Hitler's atom bomb, which is one of the topics of this book. I was going to ask how much of this was historical Research and how much of it was fancy.

Peter Johnston  12:02

The two core true stories, I would say it's, I won't put percentages on it but inspired by two true stories. One, the story of the Nazis pursuit of an atomic weapon in the final months of World War Two, which obviously would have had a significant outcome, different impact on the outcome of the war. And then secondly, the the story of Leeds castle, which is a gorgeous castle in southeastern England, that is open to visitors has never been front and center in a work of fiction like this. And it played two significant roles in world war two one at I can talk about as a hidden away hospital, but the second a pivotal role that helped determine the outcome of the war. And so taking those true stories and telling a story that encompasses both is What I did with weapons apiece,

Kevin Tumlinson  13:02

that's, uh, yeah, that's it. That's interesting. So I mean, I have a passion for taking little tidbits of history and, and spinning a more modern thriller tail around them. Is this set in? Is this a period story or is this

Peter Johnston  13:19

period set in the 19 starts in 1944. And very basic premises world's greatest negotiator is found shot up on a beach in southeast England. And he's taken to this hidden Hospital in Leeds castle as it turns out, and the only person he can reach out to with the secrets of his mission and his craft is a young British nurse who has a troubled past.

Kevin Tumlinson  13:47

Okay, now you worked in negotiator in there and that's your, that's your bailiwick. So you drawing inspiration for that character's inspiration coming from your work and life.

Peter Johnston  13:58

Oh, you bet. You know, just as Grisham uses the law and his experience as a lawyer and training to frame his stories, and twists and turns, I do the same thing with negotiation in weapons of peace. And as this ailing negotiator, passes along the secrets of his craft to this young nurse, as readers, you're exposed to the rarefied air, as I call it of international deal making and how it actually works versus what you read about the papers.

Kevin Tumlinson  14:31

See, that's interesting, because that's a hook that you just you don't see any any other story really, so that that's something that's a breath of fresh air.

Peter Johnston  14:42

Well, I hope so. And it's, to the best of my knowledge. It's the first full length novel that has delved into the art and science of influence and negotiation, essentially, as as it is, and so you're, you get this unique opportunity. Which was the challenge for me as a writer, to show somebody who would self proclaimed this British nurse knows nothing about negotiation doesn't understand it at all. She doesn't do that she's a nurse. And yet, through simple stories from this negotiator, she learns that he negotiates all the time, even though it's not, you know, firm contracts that are written up by lawyers and be that you're not born a great negotiator. You become a great negotiator when you truly understand the art and science of negotiation. Yeah,

Kevin Tumlinson  15:35

that's a that's fascinating. I mean, in a lot of ways, what you're what you do and what you what this character does. It's a lot like what would you kind of like spy craft and in its way, so just all performed out in the open? Is it spy

Peter Johnston  15:52

craft it you asked about, you know what I do versus what Nash does Everett Nash, my negotiator in this story. I do a lot of the same things Nash does in terms of dealing with the toughest negotiation challenges governments and companies face and that's my niche with coming out of my work on negotiating with giants. But I don't carry a gun but at times I'm certainly exposed to dangers just like Nash's right and yeah, it's it's really spy craft but with the one big difference is his expertise, his influence and he knows the science of influence in a way that most spies would not know.

Kevin Tumlinson  16:38

Man I love it. I love it cuz that's, that's that's the kind of hook I'm always looking for. Especially in thrillers like something that haven't seen done to death. You know, every every hero in every thriller has like an eidetic memory or all these, like comeback skills that you see everywhere. So that's that's really impressive. intriguing.

Peter Johnston  17:01

Well, thank you. And it's not. It's all based on reality, obviously. So all the skills that you're seeing him apply are things that readers can, as much as they care to absorb and apply themselves. But by no means is this a negotiation textbook. That wasn't what I wanted to write. This was just a thriller, historical thriller, negotiation thriller, that you just happen to have the premise being based around the world's greatest negotiator and stopping the Nazis from launching their atomic weapon, again, inspired by information we've learned over the last couple of decades and didn't know postwar. Yeah.

Kevin Tumlinson  17:46

So let's talk about like the research that went into this. How did you how did you conduct and handle the research?

Peter Johnston  17:54

Well, there were a couple of layers to that one was just starting out from my office. And what I could research from here is, you know, which is incredible versus even when I wrote negotiating with giants, what is available at our fingertips through the internet today, I mean, Wikipedia, for example, really was just in its infancy when I was researching, negotiating with giants 15 years ago, right. So that's, you know, from the office, I first reached out to a group of nurses that I was able to find a 90 plus year old nurses who had actually been on the front lines of the Second World War, and got them together because I had to make sure since the first part of the book is set in a hospital and looking after a dying patient had to know what they had available to them realistically, during the war. penicillin had just as you may know, was just being used for the first time and they would apply pay A cylinder every three hours, because that's what their conservative guesstimate was that they needed to keep people infection free. And I talked to these nurses, these nine year olds, and I said, so, you know, what, what are some reasonable injuries that, you know, this guy could be on his deathbed that but then make a recovery within a very tight timeframe because he's got to get over to Germany with this nurse. And they said, Okay, so all right, one reach one, one of the nurses says, Okay, you've got to take out a kidney. Yeah, use a kidney take a kidney out, that'll slow him down, but he's not dead, by no means. So this is talking from the voice of experiences. So those are the frontlines of World War Two. And that's where the genesis of the story and being set in the castle came from. And then subsequently, probably after I drafted the first part of the book, I know Now wanted to see Leeds castle in person. So when I went over with the family, they hosted showed us all the secret passages. This is an 800 year old castle that is surrounded by a moat. So that wasn't a painful part of the research, Kevin, and then went on to Berlin. And the second part of the book happens in Berlin and under the streets of Berlin, and did a lot of research in Berlin at that point.

Kevin Tumlinson  20:28

That's the fun part about this stuff is getting out in the world and following the trail that your protagonist is going to follow. What sort of what sort of elements did you discover while you were out doing that and bring bringing it back to the book?

Peter Johnston  20:45

That's a beautiful question because as you know, you have your best plans laid and then your prize. And my muse on this story was my son who by the age of 30, To read more than I'll ever read in my life, adult fiction as well, right? And Jasper's now studying at Harvard University and studying negotiation, just coincidentally. But throughout this process, he was my news. And I had him leading the research efforts. So he told me where we had to go, and when, but we were on the plane back from Berlin. And he said to me, you know, dead, where we hadn't mind the cafe for having the main meetings between the mole from the Nazi side, and the British nurse and Nash. We had envisioned it being in a cafe and he said, You know, I think there's a much better place and it's got to be the tear garden, and the specific statue that we were standing at having coffee and that's got to be where the nucleus of this happens because it's just such a fascinating area and the tear garden Kevin is like Central Park. It's 600 somebody occurs in the middle of Berlin and gorgeous and perfect setting for what happens and unfolds in the book. So that was a surprise.

Kevin Tumlinson  22:10

That sounds like the kind of place where a couple of spies would, or you know, is somebody you know, people doing something clandestine like that

Peter Johnston  22:17

and they did all the time and all the embassies are ringing around the tear garden, this gorgeous park of full of rivers and and forested areas, and statues tributes to famous Germans from across time. And so that just, but it's an example to your question as to you go out and you think you have the answer. You're just looking for the right cafe. And then you realize, no, it's it's actually got to be outside and it's got to be a park and I think that lends to the plot as it unfolds.

Kevin Tumlinson  22:49

Yeah, I've actually had to go back and rewrite almost entire chapters because, you know, I took a little trip and discovered You know, this would work much better than what they what I had in mind. Right. Curse you travel. inspirational

Peter Johnston  23:04

curse you reality that said that said, you know at the castle

Peter Johnston  23:11

you know I did. I did. I've been in touch with the castle extensively and their CEO who is Sir David Steele and they run the castle now and it's open to visitors but there are a part of my discussions with sir steel were around the fact that I was changing some aspects of the castle to meet the needs of readers in terms of how the story unfolds. But 95% of what is in this book about the castle is true to what it actually was and is today

Kevin Tumlinson  23:45

now was he did he did he appreciate the idea of you writing a book based you know, in that setting.

Peter Johnston  23:54

They were, I think, thrilled on the one hand because it's never been You've seen it in movies, because they use it all the time as a generic castle. But I, it has never been front and center as the core part of the story. And so I think they were thrilled about that. And already I can see from reviews online that people are saying, Oh my god, I can't wait to visit the castle Americans saying this. On the other hand, some trepidation because lady Bailey, who is a central figure in my story, weapons of peace is the woman who created the trust that he now oversees. She's long since passed away. But nervous because their grandchildren are trustees, and how is grandma being portrayed? And so until they read the final text, I think they couldn't have known how she would come across. But all feedback to date from British friends included is they'd love to have cocktails with Lady Bailey.

Peter Johnston  24:59

It's just the opening Test isn't it of a character?

Kevin Tumlinson  25:01

Yeah, if you Yeah, yeah. Any character that you decide I would I would hang out with this person in real life. That's you've done your work well.

Peter Johnston  25:09

It's also a good test by the way of presidents I think of countries. That's

Kevin Tumlinson  25:14

probably most you probably maybe we should write an amendment and get that hearing negotiator let's get this done. Sure. Let's get this working. Um, that's been fantastic, man. I I love stories like this. This is the kind of book that I really get into like, and so I it's, I limit that I haven't had the opportunity yet because I only got the book like, two three days ago. And I apologize for the long guys who just decided to show up outside my window if you're hearing that. That threw my entire train of thought off, but we're gonna get back on so you've got I'm real curious to know, which you found more challenging. Did you find it more challenging to write the nonfiction negotiate? giants are to write weapons of peace and

Peter Johnston  26:05

weapons a weapons of peace for sure was the tougher, tougher Hall. And the reason is, is that because I advise governments and companies around the world, this is credibility for me. So, you know, this is not in terms of the idea of the Nazis having an atomic weapon. For example, I wasn't just going to go out on the extreme and be somebody who was drawing on the most extreme views of Nazis and that an atomic weapon. I wanted to document everything and made sure that the research was accurate. So I had to a deal with everything being inspired by two true stories, the castle included and knowing I would be held accountable by the castle and by anyone who's interested in world the Second World War and in atomic weapons because I advise government And speak publicly about atomic weapons and North Korea. So all of that had to be on. So I needed, for example, not only nurses and doctors advising on medical, but I had a nuclear scientist who was advising on what was most likely the weapon that the Nazis could have developed and that they had in these final months of the war, and how could it have been used? also dealing with the castle itself. So that's one challenges I had, it was kind of nonfiction in that respect. So I had that element. But at the same time, Kevin, I've got to write believable characters. And as you know, writing characters arc of the story, I needed to have the best feedback from editors pushing me on making my writing better. And so far, so good. I think from the feedback people would not know that I'm a first time novelist. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Tumlinson  27:58

You certainly put some pressure yourself. Yeah, I'm gonna include these two factual, documented verifiable stories where I'm gonna be held accountable for both. I had to make things a little, a little bit of

Peter Johnston  28:16

it doesn't at the end of the book, there's many pages dedicated to saying what is true what is not who these people are, what role they actually played. Many of the characters are actual characters from, you know, people like Hitler himself to Candler to other Nazi figures to real doctors and leads castle lady Bailey so I did have my work cut out for me, and it took me two years to write it. My son Jasper kept track of all these statistics two years to write it, and then five years to polish fact check and get it out to read Right. I need a Jasper. Yeah. vailable is available for a nominal fee.

29:07

We have a Jasper

Kevin Tumlinson  29:10

sounds like he was a big part of this.

Peter Johnston  29:13

He was a because of his unique. He's a unique kid. And he's 21 now but when I started this, he was 13. He's credited on the title page as senior editor and script advisor. He story consultant, I think we call them there you go. And my daughter Aisha, who's also at Harvard was intimately involved in the editing process. So it was a family affair in that sense, and not to scare readers away because it's all mature content in the book. But I did have a couple of editors who, certainly when you're talking about sex scenes, for example, I had to tread carefully and I was paired back at times. Yeah, forces that be, but still still adult stuff. And without Jasper in Asia would have been tough to maneuver a very complex world and have the input on the ins and outs, twists and turns as you know, as a writer where it's hard to know at times, you're in the dark. And while you believe that you're on the right path, ultimately, you do have to have outsiders understand what you're trying to achieve. And that it all makes sense, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Tumlinson  30:32

So it took you about eight years to put this

Peter Johnston  30:35

to this point. It's eight years it was two years to write and research and then the rest was just fine tuning, editing feedback, and, and making sure all the facts are right. Yeah. So remember, during the day,

Peter Johnston  30:54

you're out I'm in negotiation in the real world. virtualizer

Kevin Tumlinson  30:57

Yeah. That's so Okay then. Are you working on another book? Are you is this? Is this it? For God's

Peter Johnston  31:06

sakes? Can I not just enjoy this one just for

Kevin Tumlinson  31:11

fun? It's always a Wednesday night. Oh, I Oh, so weapons to Electric Boogaloo.

Peter Johnston  31:18

So there's if you get to the if you read the book, and I hope your readers do read weapons of peace, they will I command it

Peter Johnston  31:26

at the very Thank you. Therefore it shall be by the end of the book. There's, there's a couple of twists that could very easily lead into a fascinating follow on sequel. But otherwise, if I'm not pressured to do that, and inclined, I will revert to non fiction for blender. And that book would be about anchoring and the psychological phenomena of entry anchoring, which I do a lot of research on, and which is Nash speaks to Mr. Doyle, the nurse in weapons of peace about this phenomenon, and we see it in play. But I think it's worthy of deeper exploration for readers who are affected by anchoring every day, including what they do for a living, who they married and what they're going to have for breakfast tomorrow and who they choose as President. Yeah,

Kevin Tumlinson  32:30

yeah. So we use the anchoring. What What do you mean by that?

Peter Johnston  32:33

So, in animals, this is called the imprinting, and it was proven best by naturalist named Conrad Lauren's decades ago, but where these Gosling's hatched out of their eggs and he was there, and they had high uncertainty, and they saw him first and they latched on to the first answer amid uncertainty thinking it's their mother. Their mother actually showed up Mother Goose and they ignored Her. So it's not just the initial impulse, it's that you are deeply ingrained in your initial assumption. And conclusion. When there's high uncertainty, we have the same phenomenon as human beings. And it leads us to the most to be exposed to in high uncertainty. One answer that makes no sense whatsoever, and yet we can live our lives by it.

Kevin Tumlinson  33:22

Right? Yeah, that's a great, okay. That makes sense. Yeah. And I could see where that would influence your choice of President your choice of all all manner of things. Exactly. Well, it'd be interesting book to read. That's

33:35

it. That's the next one.

Kevin Tumlinson  33:36

All right. Well, that's good. I think. I think you're on the right track here. Hopefully what'll happen is this. This book just takes off gets a like Motion Picture deal, and you're sure to negotiate one hell of a contract, I'm guessing.

Peter Johnston  33:53

Yeah, I would hope so.

Kevin Tumlinson  33:55

And it would be sort of sad to find out that you just got completely raked over for our contract.

34:05

Yeah, that's true.

Peter Johnston  34:08

You always have to be on your guard. And you're it's all about preparation, preparation. That's right, the greatest negotiator in the world. And if you haven't prepared in that context, you won't be ready for it. Right? So, yes, and you know, so far so good. Sales are strong and Hudson airports are they are always good to me negotiating with giants and weapons apiece or ons.

Kevin Tumlinson  34:33

That's impressive that to have your book in Hudson, your second, your second author I've talked to in the past week that that has pulled that off. I would, I would love to have my books in Hudson. Well, let's talk further. There's nothing like Hudson, Hudson books for for making a best seller out of a book. That's what that's I think so too, just because of the nature of it being you know, there people are sort of they're looking for animation. While they're traveling, and you don't get a lot of returns, because, you know, they buy the book, and then they get on an airplane.

Peter Johnston  35:07

Exactly. And they're from all over the world, by the way in there helps worldwide with sales because that that spreads the seeds.

Kevin Tumlinson  35:17

Yeah, yeah, that's a good deal. So that's impressive all by itself. Okay, well, we're kind of we're running up against time. So I want to give you a chance to because you've got an event coming up. Brian Park, he said,

Peter Johnston  35:31

That's right. Brian Park author series, which in New York City is famous. I'm told by my PR team when I hear that's what Carol told me. And so I'll be on a panel. I think it's a thriller panel, talking about weapons of peace on July 10, at 1230 in Bryant Park and doing book signings and some readings with these other panelists who are probably Far more accomplished than me. And looking forward to it. And we'd love to have any of your listeners come out to that on July 10 at 1230.

Kevin Tumlinson  36:09

Excellent. If I can swing I'll come. Who knows? Oh my God know where I'm going to be?

Peter Johnston  36:16

Well, please come up and say hi, if

Kevin Tumlinson  36:19

you'll be too big for me by then. Kevin Who? All right, so tell everybody where they can find you in your book online.

Peter Johnston  36:29

Well, if you Google my name, Peter D. Johnston, and weapons of peace, you'll find the book, weapons of peace, hyphen, book calm. It's for sale across the internet, Amazon in particular, obviously, you'll find it. And yeah, I'd love people to read it and I'd love to hear their feedback. I've listened to all of it.

Kevin Tumlinson  36:53

Okay, well, I'm gonna read it and give you feedback. I'm sure it'll be glowing positive stuff too. I

Peter Johnston  37:00

can't wait. And I'd love to I'd love to have coffee with you one way or the other, I guess, man that would be just to chat through the craft and learn from you because I'm sure I could.

Kevin Tumlinson  37:11

There's always everybody's always got their piece of this puzzle. That's why I surround myself with as many thriller authors as I can so that I can sponge off them learn learn from them. So we'll be able to swap some stories. I'm sure there's plenty I can pick up from you. So okay, everybody listening if you didn't catch those URLs, you can find all those in the show notes at words on your podcast calm. I don't know what this episode number is going to be yet, but I'm sure you'll be able to find it. And other than that, Peter, man, I'm I'm really glad that you took the time to chat with us.

Peter Johnston  37:49

Thank you so much, Kevin. What a blast.

Kevin Tumlinson  37:51

Yeah, I always have fun with these.

Peter Johnston  37:54

I need to write another book quickly, just so I can talk to you again. Do it.

Kevin Tumlinson  37:58

Yeah. Anytime you have a book at all. Doesn't matter fiction nonfiction you come talk to me. You're in Kevin, on your show. You got it. We'll have you back anytime. All right, everybody right now you're probably hearing the groovy grid

38:11

music, you might dance in place it will,

Kevin Tumlinson  38:12

and you can stick around on the other side is break, I'm sure to have something fascinating to say. So I'll see you on the other side. Well, Hey, welcome to the other side, I hope hope you got something useful out of that interview. I I love talking to thriller authors. But I also I'm always looking for insights into people's careers, especially if those careers I think help the author community and the whole negotiation thing was something I thought would be interesting and helpful. You know, you know, of course, always hearing how people got into what they're doing, and how people got into their publishing career that's always useful. So anyway, um, man, I'm, I'm just sitting here enjoying the weather in this place. It's been so hot. Down in the Houston area when we were there, still it was starting to kind of warm up and all these cool mornings were going away, had gone away and it's gotten very humid and sticky. Oh time. Here, there's like barely any humidity. It's just so nice. It's so nice to be surrounded by life actually, you know, I tended to be buried in my home office and, you know, on recording days, especially, you know, I close all the windows and you know, it always bugged me when the lawn guys came by or whatever, but, and I'm sorry if the noise from from around me is a little distracting. I but I always kind of found it found it pleasant. When I'd listen to a podcast and somebody was sitting outside recording, you know, it was always pleasant to me. So May the Zen of the moment fall upon you So that's uh, that's it for the interview. And I think we're gonna wrap up soon. I just wanted to add a couple of things just at the end. Just stuff that I'm doing stuff that I'm thinking about. I am working on a new series that is outside of my regular thriller series. My Dan Kotler books are out there doing pretty well, selling very well. But I've started a new series and I own the second book now. So I released the newest Dan Kotler book about a month ago now. The the god resurrection, and that's doing very well. My book qualia medallion, which is the first in that series had a bookbub for that for a free giveaway. And that skyrocketed that book just in time for the the exclusivity with K you to end on that. So I'm pulling that book from k u and putting it wide here in the next couple of days. And that is all part of a larger strategy. Which is this new series that I'm writing. Once I have three books, it will start wide. So I've got my 11 book Kotler series. There's 11, full full length novels in that and a couple of short stories and a novella. I'm going to continue to write in that series. And for now, the plan is to continue to release books into Kindle unlimited KDP Select, making them exclusive to Amazon on that series in for at least the 90 day period, keeping that income up while I shift gears and write a whole new series. So I'll eventually, probably in the next month or so, actually, I'm on track to finish the second book and get it into edits, probably within the next couple of weeks. And then I'm immediately going to jump in and write the next Kotler book. And then when that book was I'll write the third book in this series and I'll start releasing these guys putting them on pre order. I'll put them on pre order between now and then I haven't decided on the timeline yet, but I'll have that all ready to go. So that all I've got to do is push, push publish when it's ready. And those books will launch wide. I'll have a marketing strategy built around that. So there will be more Kotler books, there are definitely going to be this new series. And I've got more series in mind besides including maybe going back and doing some more sci fi, I got a lead on something that I'm kind of interested in. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna check into it and see how it works out. Now I had a chance to sit down and chat with Michael bunker live in person because he lives about an hour to I think he said two hours outside of kerrville. And we met up actually we met up in Fredericksburg at a

Kevin Tumlinson  43:01

Basically a beer garden called Icelander young been in Frederick, Fredericksburg, Texas I really recommend is a great place. This whole area is nice. The whole Texas Hill Country, I think, Karen, I have somewhat falling in love with this place. We're a little spoiled on our first foray out our dry, dry run our shakedown cruise, we may have found a place where it's gonna be hard to top but we're going to give it a good shot. We're going to spend time traveling the whole country. So we're looking for that. But I had a chance to chat with Michael about his his work and you know what he's up to and all that private conversations, not not podcast stuff, we just kind of were having a beer and having some fun. But it's inspired me to try a couple of things. I'm going to be working some of that into my strategy as well. So keep tuned. I'm gonna keep talking about this stuff as we go and how camper life is influencing my writing and my podcasting and all my other work. Just a lot of man, there's so much happening in some A lot of it I'm kind of under, like indie A's and things like that I was I can't really discuss what what's happening yet, but it's all coming up. So stick around. You'll learn all kinds of things. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this outdoors II nature filled episode of the words on your podcast and good wraps up the wind is picking up all of a sudden that's what you're hearing is the rustling of the awning over me. And maybe the wind on a microphone. I'm not sure but uh, you know, I'm gonna go ahead and wrap this up and take care of yourselves out there. If you if you get a chance to kind of get out in the world a little you should probably do it. I know there's scary time so be careful. But don't don't lock yourself in a house and stay that way. Get get out. See some people Listen to some things listen to some nature, walk, get some sunshine. It's a good it's a it's a good life so let's not let it pass us by unnoticed. Get out there and enjoy it. So God bless you stay in good health and I will see you all next time.

Get Kevin's Latest Release!
The Forgotten Rune

Dan Kotler is back, and this time he’s been recruited to help investigate a mysterious artifact that’s at the heart of a Senator’s disappearance. Engraved on the artifact is a lost Viking rune… but that’s impossible.

The artifact predates the Vikings by nearly ten-thousand years.

Now the artifact has been stolen, and whoever took it plans use it to unleash Hel on Earth. And only Dan Kotler can stop them!

Book 13 in the Dan Kotler Archaeological Thrillers!

>>CLICK HERE to Order The Forgotten Rune

WWP-Cover Art.png

Hear the stories behind the stories.

Wordslinger InterviewKevin Tumlinsonauthor, podcast, Wordslinger Podcast, Podcast, Author, Indie Author, Indie Publishing, Self-publishing, Marketing, Writing, Creative Writing, Kevin Tumlinson, Wordslinger, Draft2Digital, Sonata and Scribe, Police, Reference